poohcarrot said:
I don't think Jano's read it properly.
Bog off out of it smartypants
Tony, Tony, Tony -
the officers of the Lore on Tolkien forums make the canon nazis on other fantasy fandoms look like the Vienna Boy's choir :twisted:
Yes - of course Bilbo and Gollum are part of LotR canon, but I was reading this up on the some of the really anal lore sites earlier and apparently after TH began to make money and Tolkien realised he was in danger of getting another even bigger tax bill he was intending to publish the Trilogy and the Silmarillion as 2 volumes but he had a shitload of revisions to do and realised that TH wouldn't stand up at all in some places to fit the Sil and therefore the later storyline and so the early re-print editions of TH both contained as much revision as he could get away with without completely destroying the storyline to bring it more in line with the adult books without spoiling the kiddies take.
Some 'major' things the Tolkien Officers of the Lore will not accept in TH -
1. Elrond - he's referred to as an 'elf-friend' up front, but I think they slipped in somewhere (in a muttery aside from Gandalf possibly) that he was half-elven. Elrond according to the Sil is certainly of very mixed blood, including human, but he's mostly elven (by nearly 60%) and he could, had he wanted to, have claimed High Kingship of the Elves through both his parents bloodline. He was a
very posh elven prince. Elf friends have no elven blood, but can claim good buddy status, so most of the Fellowship (and Bilbo) were elf-friends (except Goldilocks).
Finally Elrond wielded the most powerful of the 3 Elven Rings and by right of blood and ability he was the chief battle commander of the elves. The ring would not be in the care of an elf friend because they wouldn't have the magical wattage for a start.
2. some of the timelines were screwed - for Thorin's father being found imprisoned, I think that had to be moved from Moria to Dol Guldur (Sauron's HQ in Mirkwood which will take up the slack for there to be 2 Hobbit movies starting in 2012).
3. Rivendell elves. Totally, totally and absolutely wrong. No falla-lal-lallys I'm afraid!
They might have done for Mirkwood or Lothlorien elves in less 'dark' times but Imladris was mainly a community for the remaining Noldor who were high caste warrior exiles (including Galadriel who lived in Rivendell too at various times as her daughter was Elrond's wife). Other sorts of elves were there too but in the timeframe for both books, they were about to be in a state of mobilising for getting elves out of Middle Earth altogether, which is why they did not actually fight with the other races during the War of the Ring (except for Goldilocks) because there weren't that many elves left there by then.
4. Trolls - not the same in any way to the Trolls in LotR. They had trouser pockets and talking purses for heaven's sake!
Trolls in the LotR and certainly in the Sil are barely sentient, certainly don't talk or wear clothes as such and are mainly used almost as beast of burdens and as battering rams more or less (the films did get them right mostly). The Hobbit ones by comparison are geniuses and on the scrawny side and would have had people from Rivendell coming out with heavy magic artillery High Elves to see 'em off.
5. Military mobilisation - as holders of the 3 elven rings at the time the dwarves and Bilbo were in Rivendell, Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel were getting ready to 'take out' the Necromancer of Dol Guldur in southern Mirkwood which is why they stayed there for several days to revictual and for Elrond to take a butchers at the map (he could do what Gandalf couldn't and told them about the secret door). Once they'd got through the mountains and enter Mirkwood, Gandalf leaves them because he's off to meet up with Elrond and Galadriel's husband to assault the Necromancer who they know is Sauron and succeed in making him 'flee' his fortress in Mirkwood for Mordor. This isn't part of TH story as such but it also puts the kybosh on the fluffy elves thing. Rivendell would have been full of warriors at that stage and not camp chorus elves. Sorry
So far as Tolkien scholars are concerned TH has just enough canon to fit LotR, but it is for kids and it cannot be used for most serious lore purposes as kosher canon because it's essentially a fairy story for hobbits with some dwarves in there too.
I'm not a purist and think Tolkien lore geeks are mostly boring and usually very sad sods, so that list is not exhaustive and relatively low key - I have seen people ready to disembowel in some threads over the elf-friend designation for Elrond and when you get onto more controversial areas like orcs, origins thereof and especially whether or not balrogs can fly and you would realise that forum trolls on Tolkien sites fight with thermo-nuclear weapons...
