SPOILERS Equal Rites Discussion *Spoilers*

[Jan Van Quirm]

Please don't push it Sharlene - not with such an obliging stenographer on hand

Actually it's interesting these early books are mostly focused on the Wizards (and Witches storming in with a vengeance in this) and with Death. In the next book Mort, he has to take the life of a Witch on his solo outing and there too we have another marked difference with how magically gifted people depart their mortal lives. Then in Sourcery we get yet another contrast between the genders with Coin's megalomaniac father's overpowering rage and grief that prompts him to cheat death in order to give his young son ultimate magical powers.

With Death, the person but really more the process, we see how Witches are far more practical and almost unconcerned about Death. How could they not be? They inevitably see him all the time in the course of their career and so the reason they're almost always calm and matter of fact when it's their turn is because they're so familiar with the dying that they have no fear of it - I don't think I can remember any Witch giving Death a really hard time of it when they die. The Wizards as we know, with the possible exception of Windle Poons, make a terrible fuss with terror from Rincewind and the extravagant behaviour of all the rest in avoiding or trying to bargain with the anthropomorphic personification.

Witches are about Life, Death and Sex - they understand people very well indeed as they are their business and it's this that's important to how they ply their trade. They fight with magic when they need to, against hivers and Elves and, in a way against Wizards too, but with people they mostly don't need to because headology forms the driving force of their brand of magic. It's the cornerstone of their power and why all Witches, including Magrat, Miss Level and Petulia, all possess or acquire conviction and pride in their abilities. But it also bonds and binds them to the real unmagical people they live and work with. Wizards don't do this for the most part. UU is the greatest example of how they hold themselves apart and study grand and lofty ideals and also why they veer from turning into selfish academic gourmands and power-crazed mages who are largley oblivious to anything remotely domestic or 'ordinary'. I'm afraid Terry is a traitor to his gender - he's let the women rule his own world, but in an unobtrusive and thoughtul manner :twisted:

 

[poohcarrot]

I'm afraid Terry is a traitor to his gender - he's let the women rule his own world, but in an unobtrusive and thoughtul manner :twisted:

How can you be a traitor to your gender by stating the obvious?

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Know when you're beaten huh? Yes that's a v. pragmatic way of looking at it pooh

 

[poohcarrot]

Know when you're beaten huh? Yes that's a v. pragmatic way of looking at it pooh

We were beaten the day God gave us penises/peni.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

Never mind. There are compensations - I'd hate to live a world without the funny little chaps

 

[kakaze]

Never mind. There are compensations - I'd hate to live a world without the funny little chaps

So would I!

And who says that you have to be a good person to care about your posterity? Wizards don't have children (usually), so in place they achieve a type of imortality by passing on their magic instead of their name/DNA.

 

[Trish]

Jan's 2d paragraph --yeah, goes double.

Equal Rites is really about the differences in how men & women think.
Same situation brings entirely different reactions /responses from each sex.

But we knew that, just that Terry says it so well.

 

[chris.ph]

and he says it again in monsterous regiment as well

 

[Tina a.k.a.SusanSto.Helit]

In Nation too... We are the Grandmothers.

 

[Phoenix]

(Gets back on topic) (in wind-up mood)

Apart from Kakaze and Phoenix, is there anyone else who thinks the staff communicates telepathically with Esk and tells her what to do?

Hmmm... I've been thinking about this and I'm not entirely sure I haven't merged my memories of ER and Sourcery I'm not sure that the staff in ER is strictly telepathic, but I do seem to recall that at times Esk struggles against the staff, which suggests it wasn't merely a tool for her to control. Methinks I will have to re-read Equal Rites before I come to a conclusion!

 

[Tonyblack]

(Gets back on topic) (in wind-up mood)

Apart from Kakaze and Phoenix, is there anyone else who thinks the staff communicates telepathically with Esk and tells her what to do?

Hmmm... I've been thinking about this and I'm not entirely sure I haven't merged my memories of ER and Sourcery I'm not sure that the staff in ER is strictly telepathic, but I do seem to recall that at times Esk struggles against the staff, which suggests it wasn't merely a tool for her to control. Methinks I will have to re-read Equal Rites before I come to a conclusion!

You're right about Esk's stuggle to control the staff. When she tries to demonstrate her magical ability at the university, nothing happens and ultimately the staff apparently attacks Simon and knocks him out. Esk is so disgusted with it that she throws it away.

But the staff was right to knock him out as he was calling the creatures and that stopped him allowing them to invade. The question is - was it the staff or was it Esk subconsciously stopping Simon?

 

[kakaze]

I wouldn't say that the staff actually communicates with Esk. It certainly uses her, like a dog that can get it's (supposedly more intellegent) owner to give it treats and play with it.

 

[Tonyblack]

That suggests the staff is intelligent in its own right - rather than a tool Esk hasn't learned to use yet.

 

[poohcarrot]

And who says that you have to be a good person to care about your posterity? Wizards don't have children (usually), so in place they achieve a type of imortality by passing on their magic instead of their name/DNA.

Excellent point!

BTW originally Kakaze was saying that the staff possessed by anyone would make them into a powerful wizard, even Gaspode. The only way that would be possible would have been if the staff was communicating telepathically to let her know about the spirkles and the weevils.

Esk already had a certain degree of magical power without the staff.

 

[kakaze]

I think she knew about the spirkles and the weevils due to her three years of witchcraft training.

Just because she had some magical ability doesn't mean it was required to use the staff.

 

[poohcarrot]

She couldn't have known about the weevils coz they were in the middle of the stuff.

 

[Jan Van Quirm]

When Witches (fairy godmother variety) and Wizards rely on inanimate objects such as wands, staffs and plain golden rings etc it's a general 'law' in the fantasy genre that said object(s) are invested with some of the practitioner's power which, in Drum Billet's and Coin's daddy's cases, goes on after their death.

Esk and Coin's 'inheritance' of those objects does not take away from their own innate magical of ability, 'cos they didn't make their staffs so their own abilities/powers are 'pure' and not shared with their staff - Coin as the 8th son cubed which we are told = Sourcerer. Esk's own ability is in question here as to origin as she, not being an 8th son of an 8th son, should not be a wizard, but she is given possession of wizard's staff nonetheless.

So a hypothesis for deliberation here. Are Witches, like Wizards, subject to the power of 8 willy nilly? We are not told this, but I suspect with Esme and Lily Weatherwax as models (one with a wand), their mother and various other magical adepts of both genders cropping up in their family tree (an Archancellor as well as Black Alice) I would say that they're almost certainly NOT subject to it at all. Concentrating on Esk, not being bound by the rule of 8 in males doesn't rule out that she has magical ability of her own. She does not take the staff out Borrowing for instance - she does that on her own doesn't she? And the spirkles and weevils are down to magic of some kind but what 'kind' - or is there no 'kind' as such only different disciplines with fairy godmothering more akin to wizardry?

Wands/staffs on Discworld are magic enhancers or power channeling devices. However, they're possibly also a drain on the individual's own innate skills and perhaps can create too much inter-dependancy with their original owner - certainly in Drum Billet's case and I think that this explains why Esk can't really control it or direct how it's used to some extent, although it does a reasonable job of keeping her safe. I don't think the staff is Drum, just his residual power lingering in the object so it's not got a telepathic link to her except perhaps it can 'sense' when she needs to augment her own power and then, because she's female there's a basic 'blowing of fuses' because the staff and Esk have the wrong sort of wiring to work together effectively and they only work 'properly' apart from each other - so knocking Simon out is purely down to the staff and likewise Esk going off to battle in the DD and not using magic at all, under her own steam?

Anyway - pull that apart a bit

 

[CrysaniaMajere]

Never mind. There are compensations - I'd hate to live a world without the funny little chaps

So would I!

And who says that you have to be a good person to care about your posterity? Wizards don't have children (usually), so in place they achieve a type of imortality by passing on their magic instead of their name/DNA.

I agree, I think this is why he cared so much about giving his staff, so that if he really has to die at least his magic of which he was so proud in life (like every wizard is) will outlive him. My Magic Will Never Die kind of thing

 

[swreader]

I agree in part with all of you (now THAT'S a surprise ).

I think that Drum Billet, knowing he is about to die, has given his staff directions to find a wizard level recipient to which he will take it and that the staff, by his command, is ordered to use magical powers to protect the new owner until such time as the owner can be confirmed as a wizard.

Thus because Esk wants to do some things like thank the trader who told her about caravans, she is able to, with the help of the staff to see the tobacco worms in the centre of the bales and warn "the nice man" of their presence.

In other words, on her journey to the Unseen University, most of which she makes on her own, the staff augments her own natural magical powers and wishes in order to get her safely to A-M.

He anger boils up after vice chancellor Treatle patronises her and tells her that women haven't the intellectual capacity for High Magic. Esk has already attracted the attention of the DD because, as Terry, in an rather unusual digression, describes wizards as being able to "put flesh on his imagination". He goes on to say this attracts the attention of the creatures of the DD. Esk has had such dreams since that first dream after her first Borrowing.

Because she knows instinctively that these creatures are dangerous, as does the staff, it doesn't matter who or which of them is acting in knocking out Simon - although I think it's the staff.

Thus in the library, Esk recognises the dangers and can see the DD creatures attempting to invade using Simon, Esk and the magic of the library as a gateway into DW. Simon cannot see them and Esk without a wizard's powers, can do nothing against them. The staff, still trying to protect Esk, knocks Simon out and the link is broken. Esk doesn't understand what the staff has done to protect her and throws it away.



(Typed by Tony - all mistakes in spelling etc. are his.)

 

[Tonyblack]

There is, I believe, a huge clue regarding the staff. All the way through the book there were carvings that Esk (and others) weren't able to see. She only gets to see then once she is made a wizard and just after that the carvings disappear.

The carvings were Drum Billet's - presumably spells he'd set up to protect the staff and Esk. Once the staff is officially Esk's she can put her own influence on it. There's mention that a staff has to be presented to be official and that's what happens.

Another thing that occurs to me is that when sk is finally given the staff it is revealed that there is no actual law that women can't be wizards. It's just that none have ever been wizards.

In the same way we are told that an eighth son of an eighth son is a wizard - but as far as we know the same unwritten rule might apply to the eighth daughter of an eighth son. The staff sought out a suitable candidate and that was Esk.