SPOILERS Feet of Clay Discussion **Spoilers**

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Apr 26, 2011
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As far as I understand raisindot, the problem is not the scene itself but that Vimes tells dragon about the poisoned candles and THEN says there's holy water in the room. Only THEN does Dragon look at the candles - which is kinda obvious when shortly before Vimes spoke about poisoned candles.
So the scene itself is OK, only Terry messed up the order a bit.

I still haven't finished rereading FoC, so I don't know if raisondot is right, but if it is indeed like he said, then he is.
 

raisindot

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Oct 1, 2009
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ChristianBecker said:
As far as I understand raisindot, the problem is not the scene itself but that Vimes tells dragon about the poisoned candles and THEN says there's holy water in the room. Only THEN does Dragon look at the candles - which is kinda obvious when shortly before Vimes spoke about poisoned candles.
So the scene itself is OK, only Terry messed up the order a bit.

I still haven't finished rereading FoC, so I don't know if raisondot is right, but if it is indeed like he said, then he is.
Thank you. That's EXACTLY what bugs me here. The scene itself does everything it needs to do; as you said, it's the order of these events that for me at least is a problem. Had this same kind of scene occurred in a traditional Agatha Christie-like mystery or police procedural this incongruity would have been a bigger issue. Since here it's only one of several narrative themes going on it's more a minor niggling point than anything else.
 
Oct 12, 2011
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The fight in the candle factory

I've just reread FoC. I remember being confused before by the sequence of events during the fight with the white golem, specifically what happed to Carrot. I've had another go at it, but I'm still not clear.


Carry fires the crossbow. Carrot gets the bolt through his left hand. The impact knocks him down. Carrot won't let Angua pull the bolt out because it has a silver point.

Cheri distracts the golem. Angua pulls Carrot out of the way and hauls him to his feet, blood dripping from his hand.

Carrot drew his sword. (Does he still have the arrow through his left hand? Usually you'd want the left to steady the scabbard while you draw with the right, but okay, maybe you can draw one-handed.) The golem knocks the sword away.

Dorfl distracts the white golem. Carrot gets a long metal rod from a stirring tank. (I was initially confused by the phrased "eased himself back down to the grease-crusted floor," as it seemed to mean he lay down. Eventually realised he must have had to climb up to the stirring tank, and was now back standing on the floor.)

As the white golem approaches, "Carrot hopped backwards, steadied himself on a rail, and swung." Why hopped? Does he have a bad leg? First I've heard of it. I think we can assume he has by now got rid of the crossbow bolt through his hand, although it hasn't been mentioned.

Carrot has a plan. We next see him climbing along the overhead gantry. He jumps on to the white golem's back, then off to the floor when Vimes and Detritus arrive. "He landed awkwardly on a sliding heap of candles. His leg buckled under him.." There's that bad leg again. Or did he just get hurt by the slide? Carrot is usually tougher than that. When the white golem comes for him, he "squirms" away and later "struggles up". Suggests to me a leg injury rather than a hand injury.

Carrot and Detritus carry away Dorfl's remains. Okay, maybe Detritus did most of the work. No further mention of injuries.


Maybe I'm just being thick, but it reads to me like a scene that was written in two different versions, and the "merge" wasn't done too carefully. Does anyone else have problems with it, or is it all obvious to everybody but me? :doh:

Mary
 

Tonyblack

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Jul 25, 2008
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It's all a bit confused, isn't it? o_O

I don't really have an answer for you, but have you ever read about the possible Robocop/Terminator parody that the scene may be?

Here's a section of The Annotated Pratchett Files from L-Space on the subject:

L-Space said:
+ [p. 258] "He landed on the king's back, flung one arm around its neck, and began to pound on its head with the hilt of his sword. It staggered and tried to reach up to pull him off."

In Robocop 2, our hero (Robo) jumped on the back of the 'Robocop 2' and tried to open its head.

+ [p. 260] "'They gave their own golem too many, I can see that."

The way the king golem is driven mad by the number of rules in its head reminded many people of a scene in Robocop 2, where Robocop is rendered useless by programming with several, partly conflicting rules. This slightly tenuous connection is reinforced by several further similarities between Dorfl and Robocop.

Never mind Robocop, however: one correspondent has posited that the entire candle factory sequence is a clever amalgam of the endings to both Terminator movies. I will let him explain this to you in his own words -- I couldn't bring myself to paraphrase or edit it down:

"The candle factory itself, with all the candle production lines is reminiscent of the robotics in the automated factory that Reese activates to confuse the Terminator. Throughout the candle factory scene, Carrot is Reese, Angua is Sarah Connor, the king switches between the original T-800 when fighting Carrot and the T-1000 from T2 when fighting Dorfl, who is the 'good' Terminator from T2.

Carrot is shot early on and has to be dragged around initially by Angua, much like the injured Reese has to be supported by Sarah. The following fight between Dorfl and the king is similar to the big T2 confrontation between the two Terminators, in which one of the combatants is able to 'repair' himself and thus has an advantage. When Dorfl is 'killed', his red eyes fade out just like a T-800s, but he is later able to come back to life. The T-800 achieves this by rerouting power through undamaged circuitry; Dorfl does it by getting the words from elsewhere (heart as opposed to head).

In T1, Reese finds a metal bar and tries to fight an opponent he can't possibly beat -- exactly as Carrot does. When Angua finds herself facing the injured king, it is similar to the scene in T1 after Reese's death, when the torso of the Terminator pulls itself along after the injured Sarah, grabbing at her legs (which the king also does to Angua). Then, Detritus' shot at the king, which has no effect, is like Sarah's last stand against the T-1000, when she runs out of ammo just at the crucial point. When it appears that the seemingly invincible king has survived everything and is about to finish the job and kill Carrot, the thought-to-be-dead Dorfl makes a last-gasp interjection which finally kills the king -- much like the resurrected Arnie appears just in time to kill the T-1000 in T2. Oh, and finally, the molten tallow that Cheery almost falls into is, of course, the molten metal at the end of T2."
What do you think? ;)
 
Oct 12, 2011
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I've never seen Robocop. I have seen Terminator, but too long ago for me to remember the details. If the Candle Factory scene was written to incorporate those elements, it would explain why it went through several incarnations. But I still think it should be internally consistent, and since it isn't, that looks like sloppy editing. That's irritating, because it suggests an attitude that "the readers don't matter, they'll never notice."

Mary
 
Oct 12, 2011
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I suppose I'm just too word-orientated. If I'm taking the time to read the words, I want them to make sense. "Sense" can mean a flat world on the backs of 4 elephants, on the back of a turtle flying through space; it's internally consistent, and I have no problem with it. I do have a problem with the inconsistencies in that fight scene - a bit like Dr Watson's Afghan war wound, which can be in the shoulder or leg, depending on which story you're reading. (A discrepancy dealt with nicely in BBC's 21st-century "Sherlock.")

Mary
 
Nov 13, 2011
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A minor comment: Female vampires turn into a swarm of bats. Male vampires turn into a single bat - Dragon does that when he escapes from the candle factory (IIRC). I suppose by the time he realized Vimes had him figured out (and wasn't there merely to ask ignorant questions or anything like that) he was weakened enough not to be able to escape in that manner.
 

raisindot

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cabbagehead said:
A minor comment: Female vampires turn into a swarm of bats. Male vampires turn into a single bat - Dragon does that when he escapes from the candle factory (IIRC). I suppose by the time he realized Vimes had him figured out (and wasn't there merely to ask ignorant questions or anything like that) he was weakened enough not to be able to escape in that manner.
A bit of 'backward rationalizing,' I think. :laugh:

Pterry hadn't really figured out his vampire mythology by this time, since a few books later in Carpe Jugulum the Vampyrs can turn into mist at will. Most likely vampires can turn into whatever they want. Sally just chose to become a swarm. But, yeah, I can only think that the only reason Dragon couldn't change was because Vimes' holy water trick had taken away his power. Although how Vimes was possibly going to be able to keep him in a cell was never addressed, and ultimately a moot point, since Vetinari freed him.
 
Nov 13, 2011
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By this point of his writing Terry already had Arthur changing into a bat (and fearing the owls) and Greebo eating a vampire in bat form. Sally sees the changing into a swarm of bats a disadvantage that only females have to deal with. I bet she'd rather change into mist if that were an option. Looks like the mist option (which I don't remember, sorry) is a talent of the de Magpyrs - they are over-achieving vampires, what with their training to immunize them against religious symbols.
 
Nov 15, 2011
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Re:

ChristianBecker said:
As The Mad Collector said.
Here in more detail:

Ars, artis feminine = Art (as in a work of art)
eniti, enitor, enixus sum = to bring forth (enixa because ars is feminine, est because it's thrid person singular); enixus sum/ enixa est is (roughly) present perfect.
candela, ae, f.`= candle (candelam because it is accusative case and eniti is a transitive verb)
Write that out a 100 times, and if it's not done by sunrise I'll cut your ba.... nevermind.

Having a Monty Python moment.
 
Jul 27, 2008
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cabbagehead said:
By this point of his writing Terry already had Arthur changing into a bat (and fearing the owls) and Greebo eating a vampire in bat form. Sally sees the changing into a swarm of bats a disadvantage that only females have to deal with. I bet she'd rather change into mist if that were an option. Looks like the mist option (which I don't remember, sorry) is a talent of the de Magpyrs - they are over-achieving vampires, what with their training to immunize them against religious symbols.
I'm listening to Witches Abroad, and Greebo eating a vampire in bat form he had one pinned down and stated it was trying to change shape,is in it to I wonder if it's been duplicated.
 
Nov 13, 2011
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Sorry for the confusing wording. Yes, I meant that incident in Witches Abroad. I was listing mentions of transformed vampires in the series before Feet of Clay. Compared to the later mention of Sally transforming into a swarm of bats.
 

stripy_tie

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Oct 21, 2011
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Re: The fight in the candle factory

Mary Skater said:
I've just reread FoC. I remember being confused before by the sequence of events during the fight with the white golem, specifically what happed to Carrot. I've had another go at it, but I'm still not clear.


Carry fires the crossbow. Carrot gets the bolt through his left hand. The impact knocks him down. Carrot won't let Angua pull the bolt out because it has a silver point.

Cheri distracts the golem. Angua pulls Carrot out of the way and hauls him to his feet, blood dripping from his hand.

Carrot drew his sword. (Does he still have the arrow through his left hand? Usually you'd want the left to steady the scabbard while you draw with the right, but okay, maybe you can draw one-handed.) The golem knocks the sword away.

Dorfl distracts the white golem. Carrot gets a long metal rod from a stirring tank. (I was initially confused by the phrased "eased himself back down to the grease-crusted floor," as it seemed to mean he lay down. Eventually realised he must have had to climb up to the stirring tank, and was now back standing on the floor.)

As the white golem approaches, "Carrot hopped backwards, steadied himself on a rail, and swung." Why hopped? Does he have a bad leg? First I've heard of it. I think we can assume he has by now got rid of the crossbow bolt through his hand, although it hasn't been mentioned.

Carrot has a plan. We next see him climbing along the overhead gantry. He jumps on to the white golem's back, then off to the floor when Vimes and Detritus arrive. "He landed awkwardly on a sliding heap of candles. His leg buckled under him.." There's that bad leg again. Or did he just get hurt by the slide? Carrot is usually tougher than that. When the white golem comes for him, he "squirms" away and later "struggles up". Suggests to me a leg injury rather than a hand injury.

Carrot and Detritus carry away Dorfl's remains. Okay, maybe Detritus did most of the work. No further mention of injuries.


Maybe I'm just being thick, but it reads to me like a scene that was written in two different versions, and the "merge" wasn't done too carefully. Does anyone else have problems with it, or is it all obvious to everybody but me? :doh:

Mary

You're definitely not alone on this one, i had to re-read that fight scene a couple of times because i didn't understand what was going on. It really needed to be taken back to the drawing board and to be re-worded and re-structured. I find this sort of thing does crop up very occasionally in his writing. Thankfully, the rest of the time his prose is very clear and concise.
 
Oct 12, 2011
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Re: The fight in the candle factory

stripy_tie said:
I find this sort of thing does crop up very occasionally in his writing. Thankfully, the rest of the time his prose is very clear and concise.
Yes, I can live with the occasional inconsistency between books. It happens when ideas get developed in a new direction. But it is a bit irritating in a single fast-moving scene. However, as you say, it's not common.

Mary
 
Jan 26, 2014
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Im halfway through reading F.O.C, and has / did anyone else notice yet another nod to lord of the rings here? (I read it as such anyway :laugh: ) It was when Vimes was talking to Cheery with regards to the appearance of the new ear-rings, and vimes says something along the lines of "earrings eh? oh yes, everyone knows Dwarfs are good with magical rings"! Haha!! :laugh: :laugh:
 

Mixa

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Yes, I remember I got it as well. :laugh: Don't think you are imagining things that are not there, in Discworld books double meanings are everywhere.

Hey! Let us know your opinion when you'll finish the book. I enjoyed it a lot... DW series really get better and better book by book. Especailly the Watch one. ;)

Mx
 
Jan 26, 2014
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Tonyblack said:
Someone on the Annotated Pratchett Files described the scene in the candle factory as being like the end of the first Terminator movie. :)
Very definately Terminator 2's end fight scene in the smelting works Tony, with all those pools of molten Iron / candle wax / conveyor belts and moving machinery :) Conjures up a vivid comparison dosent it! Sticking with the Robot movie theme, one of Dorfl's lines when he attemts to arrest Dragon King of arms,- "Undead or alive, you are comming with me", is very similar to what another policeman, (Robocop) says when he's doing arrests, - "dead or alive, your comming with me". Right after that, Dragon King of arms says "you made that thing a policeman??!!" Knowing how Sir Terry works, Im sure this scene in the book is a nod at Robocop. :) Clever!
 

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