SPOILERS I Shall Wear Midnight *Spoilers*

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raisindot

Sergeant-at-Arms
Oct 1, 2009
5,139
2,450
Boston, MA USA
#81
Here's a very small niggling question about one line in the book.

Sorry, I had to return my U.S. version to the library, so I can't tell you the page, but it's the scene where Tiffany is introducing Granny to Mrs. Proust.

Now, consider that DW relationships between adults who aren't good friends are nearly always formal--first names are rarely used when adults talk to each other. So, an 'older' witch is ALWAYS referred to as either "Mrs.," "Ms.," or "Mistress."

So, when Tiffany introduces Mrs. Proust to Granny, she specifically introduces her as 'Mrs. Proust.'

Yet, in the U.S. version, when she introduced Mrs. Proust to Granny, she refers to the Lancre witch as "Granny Weatherwax." Instead of "Mistress Weatherwax." Somehow, this seems a total violation of protocol. Indeed, this is the ONLY time that Granny's first name is verbally spoken. Everywhere else, Tiffany always refers to her (when speaking, anyway) as Mistress Weatherwax. Doing so in this case is an insult to Granny, because she is not treated with the same level of formality.

Is this done the same way in the UK version? If so, I'm wondering whether this was an editorial oversight? I can't see this being purely intentional.

J-I-B
 

Tonyblack

Super Moderator
City Watch
Jul 25, 2008
30,856
3,650
Cardiff, Wales
#82
That is in the UK version as well, Jeff. "Granny" is an honorific that she doesn't allow just anyone to use. She gave permission to Tiffany to use it - much to the amazement of the other young witches. But Mrs Proust is as much the Ankh-Morpork Witch as Granny is the Lancre Witch. Despite Tiffany's nervousness about introducing them, they both recognise each other as equals (of a sort), so therefore Tiffany was right to use the honorific.

And Sharlene agrees - so there! :p
 

raisindot

Sergeant-at-Arms
Oct 1, 2009
5,139
2,450
Boston, MA USA
#83
Tonyblack said:
That is in the UK version as well, Jeff. "Granny" is an honorific that she doesn't allow just anyone to use. She gave permission to Tiffany to use it - much to the amazement of the other young witches.
When did Granny give this permission? It's been so long since I read the other two books I don't remember this bit.

J-I-B
 

Tonyblack

Super Moderator
City Watch
Jul 25, 2008
30,856
3,650
Cardiff, Wales
#84
raisindot said:
Tonyblack said:
That is in the UK version as well, Jeff. "Granny" is an honorific that she doesn't allow just anyone to use. She gave permission to Tiffany to use it - much to the amazement of the other young witches.
When did Granny give this permission? It's been so long since I read the other two books I don't remember this bit.

J-I-B
It's when Tiffany and Granny are on their way to the Trials in Hat Full of Sky. :)
 

Tonyblack

Super Moderator
City Watch
Jul 25, 2008
30,856
3,650
Cardiff, Wales
#87
Re: tiff and preston

matthereaper said:
in the end of ISWM are preston and tiffany in love and is the sound of love them kissing?
Mat, I've deleted the other thread you started about this as it was a major spoiler for anyone who hasn't read the book yet.
 

badbob001

New Member
Oct 21, 2010
1
1,650
#88
Did anyone think of the Terminator movies when Esk mentions needing to save her son? Time travel. Mom protecting her son. Near unstoppable enemy that can take the form of other people. Fire.

It has been mentioned that Preston may be Esk's son, though I'm not sure. If Esk had mentioned that before the final encounter with the Cunning Man, then I could believe that she had to do something to keep him safe from him. But she says it after that, so it seems to be just an open plot thread, unless there is some timey whimey involved.

And Preston says this about his background:
My mother taught me to read and write, much against my dad's wishes, and since that meant I was no good for a proper job, I got packed off to be an apprentice priest in the Church of Om.
So for the theory that he's Esk's son to still work, Preston would need to have been given up and then adopted. It doesn't quite add up. But one thing is for sure, if Preston is Esk's son, we will hopefully have a future book about it and anything involving Preston would mean more Tiffany.

Regarding the plot with future Tif, I can't figure out any real point to it. Future Tif shadows Tif around but doesn't seem to have done anything other than to observe, save the mention of getting wind into the flames at the end, which seems contrived. It seems like Future Tif is just a plot device to reveal to the reader (and Tif) that she gets the fairy tail ending of being happy and in love. If that is the case, then Esk herself is only here to enable that plot device. I am happy to see Esk again since Equal Rites was my first Discworld book, but story wise she seemed tacked on.

I kept thinking that the witch shadowing Tif was the beautiful witch that died with the Cunning Man. Didn't Tif sometimes say things that seemed out of character during the book? For example:
  • * She says to Letitia 'Stupid woman. Stupid woman! Or silly woman, if you prefer."
    * And then she suddenly says to Roland, "I will marry you."
    * And where did "Leap knave. Jump, whore." come from? Maybe from Mrs Ogg...
I kept thinking that she was somehow being controlled or influenced and I naturally thought it would be the spirit of the beautiful witch, who is somehow hiding in Tif for some reason related to the Cunning Man.

It would be a time travel fan's delight if the beautiful witch turns out to be someone Tif knows, like Esk, who escapes the fire by time traveling. And her son's father is the Cunning Man. Yeah, loopsey doo. Speaking of time travel, I loved Thief of Time and would love a return to that plotline. I am curious if Lobsang and Susan got together. I hope these 'happy ending pairings' doesn't mean we that never hear from these characters again (margaret + verence, mort + ysabell, <gulp> tiffany + preston).

But oh I so enjoyed this book. Her hookup with Preston was not obvious at first and I rather liked how that relationship evolved. It would have been sad if Tiffany had followed Granny Weatherwax in having a loney life.
 
Sep 25, 2010
96
2,150
Australia
#89
I also felt that Esk was tacked on but I have just re-read Equal Rites and now I'm not so sure. I loved the portayal of Granny in this story, she seems more human and vulnerable because of her concern and care of Esk. Readers saw this again to a lesser extent in Granny's adoption of Tiffany - so I feel that there should be a link there between them.

I also thought that the witch was the one who had been burnt trying to help Tiff. But then I also thought that when Tiffany found the doll and it had 'witch' written on it that Letitia had in fact cursed ALL witches and that was why the CM had been called into being. He being the personification of hating all witchdom.
 
Jul 25, 2008
720
2,425
Tucson, Arizona, U.S.A.
#91
I found I Shall Wear Midnight the most sophisticated and well-written novel and thus a fitting end to the four book series Terry said he would write. It takes a place among the best of Pratchett’s novels. Unlike Jeff, I found this novel much darker and more frightening than any of the previous books. Arguably Tiffany fights “fairy-tale” opponents in the first three books. In this one, however, she faces an all too real threat. This malignant force is of a different level of danger than anything she has previously encountered. The reality of her danger is made clear by the “city witches”. If she cannot destroy the Cunning Man, he will possess her skills and powers to wreak his dark havoc on the Discworld. That is why the other witches are there to kill both of them if she fails to kill him.

This personification of evil is not just a threat to her. He is a threat to society as a whole. He preys on that part of the human soul which wants to scapegoat someone else for whatever seems to be wrong. And this scapegoat is always someone who is different, someone they can easily justify killing. As with Thud, there is a strong “religious” element in this hatred of the others. But the Cunning Man is far more dangerous than the Summoning Dark. The Summoning Dark affects one person, but the Cunning Man infects a society. Thou shall not suffer a witch to live (or a Muslim, or a Jew or anyone who is obviously different). His unreasoning anger caused him to burn the original beautiful witch in spite of his attraction to her; and she clasped him to herself in a parody of a loving embrace so that he burned also. But he survived physically, and as a soulless force. Tiffany must, as others have done before her, destroy him by fire while saving herself. He will undoubtedly re-appear, but not for a long time.

There are two reasons why Tiffany and the Feegles must go briefly to Ankh-Morpork. Tiffany has to travel there to tell Roland personally of his father’s death. There is no indication there is a clacks tower on the downs, and this is a message she needs to deliver in person to someone who has been, and still is, important in her life. And secondly, Tiffany must go there to meet Esk. (Terry incidentally answers all those readers who want to know whatever happened to Esk.) Esk is apparently based in AM (as a wizard) and she is the only witch who has gone back in time to see the beginning of this malignancy. The Om of that time is much like the horrors of the Spanish Inquisition. The same sort of “holier-than-thou” attitude is already working in the Nurse, who falsely accuses Tiffany of murder and theft. But, when she is caught later in the book by the Baron’s soldiers it is clear that she will get her just deserts for being a thief and a troublemaker (unlike the previous nurses). But that nurse is not nearly powerful enough for the Cunning Man to inhabit in his search for Tiffany. The old Baron’s true “nurse” was Tiffany in her role as the Witch.

Tiffany is the first and only witch ever to have gotten directly involved with an elemental force: The Wintersmith. He was capable of destroying all life on the Discworld. No wonder every person who has magical talent felt Tiffany’s destruction of him in his self-created part human personification as he intended to make her his Queen. But the threat posed by Winter was not nearly as dangerous as that posed by the Cunning Man. Winter may freeze their bodies, but evil corrupts their souls.

And just as Tiffany has changed and grown through her determination to become a great witch, the Feegles have also changed dramatically but slowly through the four books. They have a new Kelda who has brought changes and who is now as close to Tiffany as the prior one was to Granny Aching. They have saved Roland at least twice, and he needs to recognize them. The Kelda has treated Amber and told Tiffany that she, like Letitia, needs training because she also has magical gifts. Thus it is appropriate that Wee Mad Arthur (who is clearly a Feegle, unlike Buggy Swires) returns to his people. But for all their humor, this clan of Nac Mac Feegles is a powerful natural force on the Downs and they, too, are capable of love and responsibility. The Feegles in Lancre already have a deed to their land.(CJ) And Rob is only kept from killing the Baron’s troops by Tiffany’s command as their former Kelda and their Hag o’ the Hills. These Feegles have little humor to add to this dark book.

In her final appearance before Roland, Tiffany gives him the respect that is due to the new Baron, but she also takes a major step toward changing the people of the Chalk—by educating them and making them stronger. Tiffany throughout the book is run off her feet because she has a steading far too big and with too many people for her to care for. She will now start having young witches come to her. They may or may not include Leticia and Amber. And certainly there is a suggestion that Preston will help her in her big responsibility. They clearly are a pair of like minds.
 

The rat

Lance-Corporal
Apr 18, 2009
247
1,775
Bad Blintz
#92
I agree with just about everything you hve stated Charlene except one thing:


swreader said:
Tiffany is the first and only witch ever to have gotten directly involved with an elemental force: The Wintersmith. He was capable of destroying all life on the Discworld.
I believe it is in the ice tower that the Wintersmith that there are some area’s of the Disc that will not feel his touch which are the heart of the deserts, I believe or if it is not him saying it is the Summer Lady when she and Tiffany are talking on the hill after the ice tower melts. Other than that I have thought all the same things that you have posted!
 
Sep 25, 2010
96
2,150
Australia
#93
Perhaps a reason why Tiff is run off her feet is to demonstrate how badly the people of the chalk will be if all witches are destroyed. Demonstrated to the reader rather than to those of the Chalk that is.

And the jump knave, jump whore does unfortunately mean that I won't be able to introduce this one to the school library. I can't see really why it is there, why would that be a part of, or reflect the jumping over the broom ceremony?
 

raisindot

Sergeant-at-Arms
Oct 1, 2009
5,139
2,450
Boston, MA USA
#94
pandasthumb said:
And the jump knave, jump whore does unfortunately mean that I won't be able to introduce this one to the school library. I can't see really why it is there, why would that be a part of, or reflect the jumping over the broom ceremony?
You're saying that this one phrase that would keep this book out of the school library, as opposed to, say, the far more disturbing bit about poor teenage Amber getting knocked-up by her boyfriend and then getting losing the baby after her abusive pig of a father beats the tar out of her?

:laugh:

J-I-B
 
Sep 25, 2010
96
2,150
Australia
#95
:oops: yes, I must have quite blotted that bit out but you are completely correct. Conservative Christian school would indeed have a bit of an issue with that bit too. They are not keen on things that suggest any sort of pre marital carryings on. One of the singing groups was not allowed to sing one of the songs from Glee as it suggests 'spending the night together'.

Whereas they seem to be ok on the abuse. One of the options for a year 8 text is Goodnight Mr Tom which I don't teach as I find it very disturbing because of the physical child abuse.
 

MrBaloo

New Member
Feb 27, 2011
2
1,650
Metropolitan DC area
#96
Ohhhhhhh golly, that last page. . .

I see that this topic's been dormant for a few months, but we got ISWM into our household as a Cristmas gift for our son (who read it), and then my wife snagged it (and read it), and I mangaged to get it (and read it) a week or so ago. And I was completely unprepared for the simple, lovely, lyrical prose that Pratchett wrapped up the last scene with. I was not at all expecting to be emotionally moved, and there I was, helpless. It's not often that something that's just plain sweet, nice, and sincere has the power to make you cry-- which makes it all the more moving when it does. (The end of Driving Miss Daisy comes immediately to mind.)
I got up the nerve to ask my wife if she had cried at the end of the book (she rarely does), and her response was, "Oh, of course I did-- are you kidding?". So at least I know it's not my own sensitive nature running rampant. . .


MrBaloo
 

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