Mark Reads Discworld

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=Tamar

Lieutenant
May 20, 2012
12,911
2,900
It appears that the US e-book of Soul Music has a major disruption of pages. It seems to have been scanned from the US paperback, and they managed to rearrange three pages so that they run 188, * 191, 190, 189, * 192. Report is that the UK e-book doesn't have that problem. I've been posting the differences between the UK and US print editions, but this is ridiculous. I hope it was a one-time thing and doesn't happen again.

ETA: Apparently it is a weirdness in one version of the Kindle app. On a desktop it's fine, on a tablet those pages are in the wrong order.
 

high eight

Lance-Corporal
Dec 28, 2009
398
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The Back of Beyond
Well, Mark is just about to read Interesting Times and the vultures are circling.

I'm not going to bother to watch the readings (too painful and frankly I'm not a great fan of Rincewind) though I might read the comments if my blood pressure can stand it.

The 'cohorts' are already moaning about the stereotypes in IT - personally I reckon there are more in The Last Continent but it is obviously OK to stereotype Australians. .
 

RathDarkblade

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The thing to remember about stereotypes is that, quite often, they're based on real people and real things - otherwise they would not be stereotypical. For instance, if you come to Australia, you would often find the broadness and twang of the stereotypical "G'day mate" Aussie accent - especially if you travel to far north Queensland.

A stereotype by itself is not a bad thing. It becomes a bad thing when it is used maliciously - for racist purposes and the like - but I doubt very much that Pterry had ever done such a thing, which is why I find Mark and his cohorts very puzzling. *shrug*
 

high eight

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Dec 28, 2009
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Mark's fans seem to agree that IT isn't intentionally racist, it just is.Which to me is rather odd, to say the least.

As you said, it is hard to believe that PTerry was malicious in intent - he once said that he parodied what people think they know about various historical events and cultures - he never researched (for example) ancient Egypt or Japan, just used the knowledge he already had, which was mostly trivia and at least partly incorrect..
 

=Tamar

Lieutenant
May 20, 2012
12,911
2,900
Did he specifically say that he never researched Egypt or Japan?

I'm curious about that because in the piece he wrote about beginning to write Small Gods, he describes researching, first, just which ancient famous person was hit by a falling tortoise, and then the details of eagle physiology.

I know he did some research by asking people who ought to know. He said it was faster. (I happened to be present at a mini-discussion in the bar at a con when he was asking a group of very literate people whether they'd heard of a particular trope and what their reactions to it were.) As a newspaperman, he got first-person experience stories from people in all walks of life and I believe he tended to trust them more than the official statements, but he also bought historical books - books written in period, by people with first-hand knowledge - and read widely all his life.

I agree that he parodied what people think they know, and even more, the combinations that people make when they only have a few scraps of trivia and tie them all together. In IT, for instance, I'm reasonably certain that he was satirizing fantasy empires in then-current fantasy books and the "everything in Asia is the same" mindset as well as some real history both long past and recent.
 

RathDarkblade

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Mar 24, 2015
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I still am not so sure what the Agatean Empire actually is. The Forbidden City, the Winter and Summer Palaces, the Red Army, and the terracotta golems warriors that Rincewind awakens all suggest China. Of course, there are also Winter and Summer Palaces, as well as a Red Army, in Russia - and the Red Army's plans to storm the Winter Palace are VERY reminiscent of the Bolsheviks - but the fact that they eventually storm the Summer Palace are much more Chinese, since the Summer Palace was actually stormed in 1840, during the Taiping Rebellion. On the other hand, there is talk of ninja stalking the night, the Emperor and his inner circle have a tea ceremony, they use chopsticks and the Silver Horde encounter samurai - all of these are obviously Japanese.

Rincewind also encounters peasants cultivating rice and wearing large, bowl-like hats; this is suggestive of China. But he also encounters Noh theatre (and Tsimo/Sumo wrestlers), which are definitely Japanese. And, of course, the book's title - "Interesting Times" - refers to the myth of the Chinese curse (although to count all the references would take a long time). ;)

Perhaps the point is that Cohen and his Silver Horde are a parody of the Mongolian Golden Horde. The Mongols definitely invaded and captured China, in their case destroying the Jin and Song dynasties and subduing western Xia and the Dali kingdom (which was based in today's Yunnan province of China). The result was the establishment of the Yuan dynasty, covering Mongolia and China. (In IT, the various feudal houses are Hong, Tang, Fang, Sung, and McSweeney ("very old established family!")). :laugh: Korea had also submitted to the Mongols, who then tried invading Japan twice, but both invasions were repelled by kamikaze storms. This set the limit on the Mongols expanding eastwards, and they turned west, invading and conquering most of eastern Europe (up to the border between Austria and Germany) and much of the Mediterranean, down to the border between the Crusader States (then in decline) and Egypt.

The Mongols were famously tolerant as far as religion is concerned, just as the Silver Horde are. The Mongol invasion of China was led by the legendary Genghis Khan, and Cohen is eventually crowned Ghenghiz Cohen - although Genghis Khan died halfway through the invasion of China, and his work was completed by his equally famous generals and descendants, Kublai Khan and Ögedei Khan. Cohen is, obviously, luckier. ;)

So yes, the Agatean Empire - insofar as cultural influence is concerned - is a bit of a mystery. Perhaps it takes the form it does because the Yuan dynasty eventually became, culturally, a blend of Mongol and Chinese cultures and religions.

And there you have it. I hope it wasn't too boring for you, but I'm sure you know that I read a whole heap of history! ;)
 

Penfold

Sergeant-at-Arms
Dec 29, 2009
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I do think he is parodying peoples perceptions of the Oriental nations (Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, Filipino, etc.) in this book, particularly when you think back to not so many years ago when you commonly heard the phrase, "they all look the same to me". Certainly, there is racial stereotyping in the book but I am also certain that this is only done to highlight those misconceptions.
 

high eight

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Dec 28, 2009
398
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Penfold said:
I do think he is parodying peoples perceptions of the Oriental nations (Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, Filipino, etc.) in this book, particularly when you think back to not so many years ago when you commonly heard the phrase, "they all look the same to me". Certainly, there is racial stereotyping in the book but I am also certain that this is only done to highlight those misconceptions.
Yes, I think that's it - he is parodying the stereotypes. Of course, that means sometimes he teeters near the brink of stereotyping, but that is the way parody works.

Thanks for the interesting post, Darkblade.

In answer to Tamar - no. I don't think he specified ancient Japan in his quote - I'm pretty sure he did mention Egypt, though. It was fairly early in his career (in fact I think he was working on or had just completed Pyramids when he said it)
 

=Tamar

Lieutenant
May 20, 2012
12,911
2,900
Thanks, high eight.
I think Penfold has put it most succinctly. pTerry was satirizing the mishmash of ideas that many people had and still have as a vague idea of Asian culture, without knowledge of the cultural details that mark the different cultures. There was a description in Pyramids, come to think of it, of ambassadors who were wearing a wildly inappropriate combination of clothing from different eras of Egypt, completely ignorant of how absurd they looked. It is that absurd combination of disparate elements that many people (including, I admit, me) have in mind as a kind of monolithic "Asia" that he is using as the Agatean Empire. Within that, he is jabbing at some very real history as well as the cultural distortions in movies and novels.

One element that some people forget, or ignore, is that not only does Twoflower pass successfully for Ankh-Morporkian (at least when not in Ankh-Morpork), Rincewind passes successfully for a citizen of Bes Pelargic.
On the other hand, that might be partly because of the McSweeneys. That isn't as hilariously out of place as you might think. In the reports of the Silk Road that I have read, there was a group of people in the middle of Asia who bought silk from China and sold it to people from Europe; they were described as having red hair. There are also people from the western parts of China who sometimes have green eyes and European-looking noses, and have been represented in sculptures centuries ago. The people who are now often called Celts are said to have originally come from somewhere in the middle there, and gone in both directions. The Tarim mummies are Caucasoid and have DNA from pretty much all over Eurasia.
 

RathDarkblade

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=Tamar said:
One element that some people forget, or ignore, is that not only does Twoflower pass successfully for Ankh-Morporkian (at least when not in Ankh-Morpork), Rincewind passes successfully for a citizen of Bes Pelargic.
On the other hand, that might be partly because of the McSweeneys. That isn't as hilariously out of place as you might think. In the reports of the Silk Road that I have read, there was a group of people in the middle of Asia who bought silk from China and sold it to people from Europe; they were described as having red hair. There are also people from the western parts of China who sometimes have green eyes and European-looking noses, and have been represented in sculptures centuries ago. The people who are now often called Celts are said to have originally come from somewhere in the middle there, and gone in both directions. The Tarim mummies are Caucasoid and have DNA from pretty much all over Eurasia.
Very true! I didn't think of that point, but now that you raise it, it becomes almost self-evident. The Silk Road has long been a site of multicultural exchange between East and West, even as long ago as the ancient Roman Republic (and later Empire). There is an interesting hypothesis that some of the ancient Roman soldiers, defeated in an eastern campaign, may have been sold as mercenaries to the Chinese - or possibly escaped after the battle and found sanctuary with the Chinese? - and impressed them so much that the Chinese Han dynasty decided to use them as defenders on the Sino-Tibetan border, where they clashed with the Xiong'Nu (who, 400 years later, became the infamous Huns under the legendary Attila).

There is more information in this Wikipedia article, plus this one about the Liqian village (pron. "Li-Jien", or "legion"?) Personally, I find it hard to believe that just one cohort of Romans are responsible for the blue-or-green eyes, Aquiline noses and more-than-average height found in this region. Then again, archaeologists have been digging in the area of Liqian for a couple of years now, and have already unearthed the remains of a Roman-style square fort. Who knows what they might find? It is interesting, for sure! :)
 

=Tamar

Lieutenant
May 20, 2012
12,911
2,900
Romans are rather later than the Tarim mummies, aren't they? Some of them date to 1800 BC. I was thinking more of the theory that a redhaired group arose in central Asia and spread both East and West. That would qualify as a "very old established family".
 

RathDarkblade

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Hmm... I am not sure we're thinking of the same thing, here. I hadn't heard of the Tarim Mummies before, but was thinking of a much later incident - the battle of Carrhae (53 BC) and its aftermath.

You're absolutely right that Romans come much later - the site of the Palatine Hill would start to be settled in earnest until some time in the 10th century BC, still much earlier than the legendary founding of Rome in 750-something BC. Unfortunately, it's difficult to know for certain what the would-be Romans did before that, as tales of what Rome's founders did before they got there are mixed up with mythology - Dido and Aeneas, and all that. ;)

I'm not as well versed in Chinese history as you are, =Tamar, but I wonder whether there is something in the theory of this early Eurasian race. Where did they come from? Where did they go? Early Eurasiatic languages (or at least their descendants) seem to have spread nearly worldwide. So I'm curious... :)
 

=Tamar

Lieutenant
May 20, 2012
12,911
2,900
I'm not at all well-versed in Chinese history, I just read a lot and a few interesting details stick in the memory. I don't know where they came from - somebody's done the DNA studies but that doesn't really answer where they came from, only where their descendants are and where some of them were buried. However, their descendants are still there, in China. They didn't disappear, we just don't hear much about the green-eyed Chinese.
 
Jul 27, 2008
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They are in Chinese folklore,
Big Trouble in Little China ... For of the green-eyed villagers of Liqian, north west China. ...
Lo Pan searched for a woman with green eyes, and although he did find some, clearly ... Some of the Chinese mythology in the film is based on actual history.
The theory is based upon stories gathered from official histories, folklore regarding Marcus Crassus's fabled missing army.
 

=Tamar

Lieutenant
May 20, 2012
12,911
2,900
Sheesh. I thought we'd at least get through today's section, but he and the rest are off and running already. I wonder what I'll do with all the free time this is going to give me. I have to admit I can't defend certain things in IT and would, if I'd had the chance, have recommended some heavy editing, but some of the reaction makes me want to tell people to go read some history. I won't, of course. It's his site, and it's not my problem.
 

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