Mark Reads Discworld

[Tonyblack]

And in movies all the time.

 

[high eight]

And in movies all the time.

It was a major plot point in the musical comedy 'Singing in the Rain'

 

[Tonyblack]

The funny thing is that this practice is known as "ghost singing". One of the most famous ghost singers you've probably never heard of, is Marni Nixon, who ghost sang for Audrey Hepburn in My Fair Lady, Deborah Kerr in The King and I and Natalie Wood in West Side Story.

 

[high eight]

Sir Terry expected his audience to be able to perceive the satire without having it spelled out for them. I feel that Maskerade is obviously criticizing the double standard of body image; using opera is a really obvious way to show that, because historically opera singers have been praised for their size on the theory that larger bodies resonate more. It's very clear that Salzella's attitude (specifically sexist, too) is a new thing in Discworld opera. I'm hoping I'm wrong, but I expect some of the people who post on that site to miss it completely and complain that it isn't being "called out" even though it is objected to by Dr. Undershaft.

Yep it has happened, One of the group is thinking of giving up on the book because: - "nothing that's happened to Agnes,,,, ,, has been unrealistic or over-the-top, and nobody has been called out in the text for treating her like crap. It's hard to be satirical when the characters are literally just being treated like they would be in real life"

I'm saying nowt.

 

[RathDarkblade]

The funny thing is that this practice is known as "ghost singing". One of the most famous ghost singers you've probably never heard of, is Marni Nixon, who ghost sang for Audrey Hepburn in My Fair Lady, Deborah Kerr in The King and I and Natalie Wood in West Side Story.

I've heard of Marni Nixon. Yep, "ghost singing" happens more often than you'd expect.

 

[raisindot]

Yep it has happened, One of the group is thinking of giving up on the book because: - "nothing that's happened to Agnes,,,, ,, has been unrealistic or over-the-top, and nobody has been called out in the text for treating her like crap. It's hard to be satirical when the characters are literally just being treated like they would be in real life"

I'm saying nowt.

I'm not listening to Mark nor do I care what his followers think, but I do think it is true that poor Agnes is often treated quite cruelly in the books in which she appears. Pterry makes her the "butt" (pun intended) of endless fat jokes, both in exposition and in nasty comments from people who interact with her. He does try to counteract this by pointing our her marvelous hair and singing voice and obvious witching talent, and by having her usually overcoming the obstacles (both external and self-inflicted) thrown her away. And he does make her Vlad's love interest in Carpe Jugulum, but I think the vampire is more interested in her mind than in her body. As much as Pterry tries to emphasize Agnes' good qualities, sometimes I feel he went a little too far with the fat jokes, especially when the victim is a teenager with self-esteem issues (her weight being part of it). Compare his physical description of her to that of Nobby Nobs, who has to carry around a "chit" to prove he's human. He's almost always described as being supernaturally ugly, but rarely does any character openly insult him about his looks (maybe because there's so much more to insult him about).

 

[high eight]

As a large person myself, I think PTerry got it about right - I wouldn't want readers to forget that Agnes is fat and Agnes herself will never forget it - take it from me, if you're fat it is never out of your mind.

 

[raisindot]

As a large person myself, I think PTerry got it about right - I wouldn't want readers to forget that Agnes is fat and Agnes herself will never forget it - take it from me, if you're fat it is never out of your mind.

I think what I find uncomfortable is how much Pterry jokes about Agnes's weight in the exposition---i.e., his narrator's descriptions of her body mass. Maybe I need to re-read the books again, but I don't remember too many occasions (other than Perdita's insults) where Agnes herself expresses her own dismay about her weight, unless it's her own internal response to an insult from someone else. I don't think that Agnes herself is uncomfortable with her weight--she's uncomfortable with other people's disparaging reactions to her weight. That Pterry himself quite often--as narrator--seems to be one of the disparagers, albeit one that Agnes isn't aware of.seems to be a bit cruel.

Compare the way Pterry treats Agnes's weight with the way way he treats the fatness of Fred Colon. In any given Watch book he'll mention Fred's weight when describing him, but from that point on you rarely see a fat joke either in exposition or in dialogue.

 

[high eight]

I don't remember too many occasions (other than Perdita's insults) where Agnes herself expresses her own dismay about her weight, .

She does quite a lot in Maskerade. Not so much in Carpe Jugulum

That Pterry himself quite often--as narrator--seems to be one of the disparagers, albeit one that Agnes isn't aware of.seems to be a bit cruel.

Compare the way Pterry treats Agnes's weight with the way way he treats the fatness of Fred Colon. In any given Watch book he'll mention Fred's weight when describing him, but from that point on you rarely see a fat joke either in exposition or in dialogue. .

I'm not so sure - I do think that the readers should be reminded occasionally of Agnes; size. It and her reaction to it is an important part of who she is. Fred Colon not so much - he probably isn't that aware of his fatness.

 

[Tonyblack]

I think that part of the reason for the references to fatness (although Terry does seem to go over the top in some other books) is that Enrico Basilica is also described as hugely fat and yet no one sees this as a problem for a male opera singer. It's the double standard that is so often common between men and women in the entertainment business in general. And "body shaming" has become a big thing in recent years.

 

[=Tamar]

Back in the very early 1990s on a.f.p. there were discussions and complaints about how people would walk up to fat women and say "You're really fat, did you know that?" Pterry was merely reporting reality. The double standard differential has actually become slightly less, but not in a good way - now the men are expected to have model-perfect bodies too. The standards for both keep getting more impossible. First it was thinness, then gymnastics ability (for both sexes), then extra visible muscle and a six-pack abdomen (for both sexes!), etc.

 

[=Tamar]

The last couple of weeks have had an unexpectedly small amount of ranting. The story of Maskerade seems to be taking hold. I want better fan art of Greebo during the chase scene.

 

[poindexter]

I think Nanny's Chocolate Delight with Special Secret Sauce went over his head.. I'm a bit disappointed about that, I love that scene. I think he thought it was just really spicy or something.

 

[=Tamar]

Most everyone else seemed to get it. Sometimes I think he tries to avoid the dark side of characters he likes. This book reveals many dark sides.

 

[Tonyblack]

He does seem to be genuinely enjoying Maskerade. He thought the British word "gyp" was a racial slur and the Gypsies in the opera were difficult for him, but at least he admitted that, because the word was now considered a slur, it probably wasn't when Terry wrote the book.

 

[high eight]

Feet of Clay next. Fred Colon and Nobby make some remarks early on that should cause a rant or two.

And I wonder if some of Mark's buddies will think of the golems as somewhat anti-Semitic?

Its another good mystery, though, and I think they;ll like it overall.

 

[RathDarkblade]

Being Jewish myself, I can't understand how anyone who knows anything about Judaism and the Jews would think that the golems are anti-Semitic.

Personally, I think Terry did a fantastic job with them. If anything, their depiction is more pro-Jews.

 

[high eight]

Being Jewish myself, I can't understand how anyone who knows anything about Judaism and the Jews would think that the golems are anti-Semitic.

Personally, I think Terry did a fantastic job with them. If anything, their depiction is more pro-Jews.

Oh, I agree with you Rath - but some of Mark's group might accuse PTerry of 'cultural appropriation' (not that I'm sure what that means to them)

 

[Penfold]

I'm probably being ignorant but is there really a big difference between cultural appropriation and cultural assimilation? I only ask because over the last forty years or so, integrating other cultures into our British one has improved our cuisine*, fashion, and attitudes** (generally), to name but a few.

* This used to be the classic meat and two veg with the veg being boiled to a grey mushy lump for the most part (although this might just have been the standard of my families cooking ability ) Either way, restaurants in the 70's did not offer much variety or quality, if I recall correctly. Nowadays curry, for example, is a traditional British dish and a recognized part of our cuisine.

**I still remember the days of signs outside of boarding houses saying "no blacks, dogs, or Irish". I was always quite proud of my grandparents, who took lodgers, for never subscribing to this commonplace rule.

 

[RathDarkblade]

I'm not really sure what cultural appropriation is, but cultural assimilation is something that cultural outsiders try to do in order to fit in. Assimilation is basically the outsiders doing their bit to fit in: adopting their country's cuisine, fashions, ways of thinking etc. Jews (at least, some Jews) have been doing it for hundreds of years. It worked a treat for us when Mendelssohn became one of the most famous composers that ever lived, and when Disraeli became the first (and still the only) British PM. Of course, it didn't work so well on the Continent, with things like the infamous Dreyfus Affair or - even worse - when some uppity Austrian corporal with a silly moustache decided he didn't like us.

By cultural appropriation, I presume you mean that the country's society itself adopts some of the things they like about outsiders - again, cuisine, fashion etc. For instance, as you mentioned, British society adopting curry.

Assimilation and appropriation are not the same, but they're two very similar sides of the same coin.