So Which Discworld Characters Don't You Like?
- Thread starter poohbcarrot
- Start date
I think Making Money is my least favorite of the Moist books, though I haven't given that one a second read yet, so who knows?
I would have liked to see more of Carrot's reaction to Mr. Fusspots new, erm, toy, though.
Oh! That reminds me, I didn't like Carrot at first, either! I somehow read Men At Arms before I read Guards! Guards! so maybe I just didn't get him yet? I ended up enjoying him by the end of the book, but I definitely remember being more interested in the Constable Cuddy/Detritus duo.
I would have liked to see more of Carrot's reaction to Mr. Fusspots new, erm, toy, though.
Oh! That reminds me, I didn't like Carrot at first, either! I somehow read Men At Arms before I read Guards! Guards! so maybe I just didn't get him yet? I ended up enjoying him by the end of the book, but I definitely remember being more interested in the Constable Cuddy/Detritus duo.
Well..... the reason for that is quite simple, MrsWizzard. You see, by the time of Men at Arms, Carrot is more or less an established character - so if you didn't know his background, you might have thought to yourself, "Who is this Carrot and why does he behave like that?" But the Detritus/Cuddy duo was new and fresh, and there was relatively little backstory to them (in Cuddy's case, there was none). So they were easier to understand.
Speaking of MAA, I was a little annoyed that
I'm not sure why people don't like Making Money. I loved it.
Once I listened to Stephen Briggs reading it, I loved it even more. My least favourite Moist book (as opposed to Dry book, I guess? *rimshot*) was Raising Steam. It was fairly amusing, and I loved the Pterry's take on steam trains and all the little observations and references (the reference to
nearly killed me!), but overall, I thought it wasn't as good as GP or MM.
Now I wish we could have seen what Pterry had in mind for tax reform (aka the ending of MM)...
You see, by the time of Men at Arms, Carrot is more or less an established character - so if you didn't know his background, you might have thought to yourself, "Who is this Carrot and why does he behave like that?" But the Detritus/Cuddy duo was new and fresh, and there was relatively little backstory to them (in Cuddy's case, there was none). So they were easier to understand.Speaking of MAA, I was a little annoyed that
Cuddy ended up dead. I thought he was a promising character, and it was unfair to kill him. Besides, since it was the first and last book we see him in, we didn't feel an emotional connection to him.
I'm not sure why people don't like Making Money. I loved it.
Once I listened to Stephen Briggs reading it, I loved it even more. My least favourite Moist book (as opposed to Dry book, I guess? *rimshot*) was Raising Steam. It was fairly amusing, and I loved the Pterry's take on steam trains and all the little observations and references (the reference to
George Stephenson and his train
Now I wish we could have seen what Pterry had in mind for tax reform (aka the ending of MM)...
<Now I wish we could have seen what Pterry had in mind for tax reform (aka the ending of MM)..>
The proposed title for that one was Raising Taxes at one point, but got morphed into R.S.
Another proposed was one about the Water Board,(presumably parodying Thames Water in London) Which A.M.is based on. But sadly we will never know.
The proposed title for that one was Raising Taxes at one point, but got morphed into R.S.
Another proposed was one about the Water Board,(presumably parodying Thames Water in London) Which A.M.is based on. But sadly we will never know.
I don't know about "dislike", but I find it very hard to muster any enthusiasm for Carrot after his initial couple of appearances. Watching his naivety get him into trouble and earn him puzzled looks in Guards! Guards! was a highlight. Trying to figure out if he's a cold-hearted narrative manipulator or just relentlessly, boringly ideal in The Fifth Element was a lose-lose situation.
I agree. Terry made, I believe, the mistake of making Carrot too perfect. When a character is too perfect, they no longer have any room to grow. I really get that feeling in the later books, where he only makes cameo appearances. I am also extremely glad that Terry didn't take the whole rightful king thing any further than he did.
LI'L SPOILERS AHEAD
Pterry knew he had made Carrot "too perfect" by the time of Jingo, and he compensated by evolving Vimes into the true "world changer" he becomes in later books. Pterry compensated by turning Carrot into a manipulative and irresponsible "lost dog chaster" in The Fifth Elephant, where
TFE showed the "dark side" of Carrot that was only hinted at in previous books, but it also signalled his "demotion." He never played a significant role in any future Watch books.
Pterry knew he had made Carrot "too perfect" by the time of Jingo, and he compensated by evolving Vimes into the true "world changer" he becomes in later books. Pterry compensated by turning Carrot into a manipulative and irresponsible "lost dog chaster" in The Fifth Elephant, where
He plays no key role in unraveling the conspiracy behind the theft of the Scone of Stone. In fact, he is the only member of the Ankh Morporkers who doesn't meet the King. Other than helping rescue Vimes from the werewolves (which Angua and the wolves could have done without him) and attacking Wolfgang (which, again, Angua might have done) he had no part in the resolution.
TFE showed the "dark side" of Carrot that was only hinted at in previous books, but it also signalled his "demotion." He never played a significant role in any future Watch books.
RathDarkblade said:
I think you mean "The Fifth ELEPHANT" (unless Carrot has now popped up in the film...)
The funny this is that he was really entertaining in Guards! Guards!, where his overbearing and noble qualities are balanced. He's literal-minded, which results in bizarre behaviour and one of the more imaginative villain deaths in the series. He's single-minded in his goals and simple in his approach; his attempt to arrest and then protect the dragon being the best example of both qualities. And he still has signs of humanity, such as his desperately denying he's a human at first, failing to charm the patrons at the Drum, and being just as helpless as the other guards both over coming to terms with Gaskins' death ("It didn't ought to be like that") and in dealing with the dragon king. This is as close as he ever gets to being a hyper-eager puppy out of his depth.
It's not impossible, but it's very hard to square that with his portrayal in The Fifth Elephant, simply because the only thing remaining is his occasional - and never particularly dramatic - mistakes. Probably the one part that put me off most is the implication that he manipulated story-telling logic to survive by sacrificing Gavin, thereby indirectly lining up the hypotenuse of the love triangle for murder. When the strongest counter to his story-bending "everything works out for his boy-scout goodness" ability is that creepy, I've run out of ways to find his character palatable.
Hmm... I don't know, I still found Carrot entertaining during Men At Arms (especially his
) and also during Feet of Clay
and also how terrified the lawbreakers are of him) and during Jingo - particularly
. 
But I agree, The Fifth Elephant was not Carrot's finest hour. I'm not sure why; Terry has shown us before that Carrot was a fine character, both inside (G! G!, MAA, FOC) and outside (J) A-M. However, this is the first time that Carrot has been outside A-M and relying almost completely on himself - i.e. no Vimes, no one around to give him orders. It could be argued that
After TFE, Carrot only ever had cameos here and there... I only remember one -
Carrot's literalness was fun - this quality reminded me a little of Death - but it was clearly time for Carrot to stand aside from being the central character, as he was in G! G! .
attempts to "woo" Angua
(his sometimes cluelessness and his unthinking sexism, which is immediately pointed out by Angua,
his organising a football match
But I agree, The Fifth Elephant was not Carrot's finest hour. I'm not sure why; Terry has shown us before that Carrot was a fine character, both inside (G! G!, MAA, FOC) and outside (J) A-M. However, this is the first time that Carrot has been outside A-M and relying almost completely on himself - i.e. no Vimes, no one around to give him orders. It could be argued that
Angua is his superior in a sense, since she and the wolves rescue him from almost certain death - but in terms of the watch, he is (or should be) her superior, since he is a captain and she is merely a sergeant. Then again, Terry usually has fun with the "lower ranks" being smarter in most circumstances - witness Monstrous Regiment for the best examples of this.
After TFE, Carrot only ever had cameos here and there... I only remember one -
when he had to interview Moist, after the latter had to break into the vaults at the Ankh-Morpork Bank, in order to (possibly) rescue Mr. Bent.
RathDarkblade said:
After TFE, Carrot only ever had cameos here and there... I only remember one -
Carrot's literalness was fun - this quality reminded me a little of Death - but it was clearly time for Carrot to stand aside from being the central character, as he was in G! G! .
when he had to interview Moist, after the latter had to break into the vaults at the Ankh-Morpork Bank, in order to (possibly) rescue Mr. Bent.
He "led" the investigation into the death of the grag, as the designated "truth finder" for the dwarfs. But from a narrative viewpoint his role there was mainly to serve as the competitive "lust interest" between Angua and Sally. He just about totally disappeared from the book after bringing the murdered city dwarfs to the surface, and, as in The Fifth Elephant, had absolutely no role in the resolution of the dwarf conflicts. Notice, too, that he's completely absent from the dwarf narrative of Raising Steam as well. After his demotion in The Fifth Elephant, he is done as a crucial narrative mover and shaker.
I’m not sure what’s worst… Say which is your favourite Discworld characters or say which characters you don’t like! Personally I love them all! I’m unable to be judgmental towards them because I think they are all multifaceted and one single interpretation of them is never valid. I’m the first one to always vindicate that there’s no accounting for taste, but I believe every character has its merit, depth and reason for being, even the ones that may sometimes look like cardboards.
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